I was banned for supporting the right of people in eastern Ukraine for not wishing to be part of the state banning their language and doing g pogroms not just against Russians bot Jews and Roma people for 12 years prior to the Russian intervention.

Tanuki was banned just for posting a video of civilians being kidnapped off the street to be forced into a war they know is a lost cause.

If this is what you call Anarchism I am ashamed of you.

  • pelikan@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish
    20·
    3 days ago

    Since there is no link to the original thread, judgement can only be made based on the screenshot; and if Tanuki was banned for his post, this is 100% undisputable PTB.

    However, I dislike how Tanuki portrays Ukrainians as silent victims of forced mobilization carried out by their government. In reality, recent years have seen hundreds of examples of spontaneous self-organization and collective self-defense, when ordinary passersby have rescued detained conscripts from conscription officers, using fists, clubs, pepper spray, knives and even firearms, overturning buses, and so on.

    Also this community !ukrainerussiareport@lemmy.ml has dozens of videos of real anarchy in Ukraine and popular anti-state resistance. Just a few of them:

    • Johnny_Arson [she/her]@hexbear.netOPEnglish
      194·
      2 days ago

      However, I dislike how Tanuki portrays Ukrainians as silent victims of forced mobilization carried out by their government. In reality, recent years have seen hundreds of examples of spontaneous self-organization and collective self-defense, when ordinary passersby have rescued detained conscripts from conscription officers, using fists, clubs, pepper spray, knives and even firearms, overturning buses, and so on.

      They are not silent, the problem is that the western news that the likes of unruffled and so many take as given truth, continues to ignore and silence those voices, notice how not a single one of your links about those things is a US news outlet?

  • limer@lemmy.ml
    4·
    2 days ago

    It’s very easy to be misinformed about one or more experiences here. Very easy to filter out things, or never know. It’s the perfect recipe for internet warriors to take no prisoners. So PTB here.

    But I have long thought that many have no idea what they are talking about on lemmy, when supporting either side

    • Johnny_Arson [she/her]@hexbear.netOPEnglish
      2310·
      2 days ago

      Pro Ukrainian state. It’s quite clear. And the “Russian aggression” only began after over a decade of people in Donbas having their own attempts at self determination met with brutal retaliation and repression.

      Gotta have some real tortured logic to say “free state of Ukraine” follow it up with the Banderite slogan “slava Ukraini” and then pretend not to be throwing in pn the side profile the fascists.

      Also my accusations of antisemitism are not “thinly veiled” I am literally telling you that since 2014 Azov and other elements of Ukrainian state forces have literally doing pogroms against not just ethnic Russians in the east, but Roma and Jews all over the country for over 12 years now. If you deny it, I just assume you’re a fascist.

      Also Unruffled you have a very long history of fascist apologizing so you really are only helping prove my point here.

      • Unruffled [they/them]@lemmy.dbzer0.comM
        92·
        3 days ago

        Pro Ukrainian state. It’s quite clear.

        Pro the invaded is another way of looking at it.

        Gotta have some real tortured logic to say “free state of Ukraine” follow it up with the Banderite slogan “slava Ukraini” and then pretend not to be throwing in pn the side profile the fascists.

        What are you even talking about?

        Also my accusations of antisemitism are not “thinly veiled”

        I think you are replying to the wrong person.

        Also Unruffled you have a very long history of fascist apologizing

        Yes I’m a huge fascist, you caught me!

        • Johnny_Arson [she/her]@hexbear.netOPEnglish
          146·
          3 days ago

          Pro the invaded is another way of looking at it.

          This implies that the universe somehow spontaneously came into being the day Russian forces entered Ukraine.

          They were in a civil war… Do you think that if a civil war broke out in Mexico that the US would have been there WAY sooner than Russia did in this case?

          The Civil war in Ukraine started with Crimea wanting to leave because of the rapid Nazification of the Ukrainian government. That is why they overwhelmingly voted on a referendum to separate and the only way to do so without being genocided was to join the RF.

          Then the Nazi faction of the Ukrainian right basically consolidated power and kept doing pogroms and indiscriminately shelling the east as Donbas followed suit. This only escalated the conflict and proved that there was a re-emergence of the Banderite movement that collaborated with the Nazis in WWII. The slogan “Slava Ukaraini” was one of their most known chants.

          I am not Pro-Russia. I recognize the right of self determination of all people, and that does not put me in a position to criticize them when they can take support from whoever possible in the face of Nazism and Imperialism.

          I do not criticize Iran for being aligned with Russia for the purpose of their survival. I do not criticize any state for seeking aid from yet another enemy of the US empire for assistance no matter how flawed that state may be.

          • Unruffled [they/them]@lemmy.dbzer0.comM
            2·
            2 days ago

            I am not Pro-Russia. I recognize the right of self determination of all people, and that does not put me in a position to criticize them when they can take support from whoever possible in the face of Nazism and Imperialism.

            An invasion is not self-determination though. And surely nobody with half a brain buys the idea that the Russians weren’t doing everything they could to incite and/or exacerbate problem in these regions to provide a useful pretext for the invasion. Including sending Russian neo-nazis to the region. It’s so fucking obvious it barely needs pointing out, but since you have your blinkers on.

            I do not criticize Iran for being aligned with Russia for the purpose of their survival. I do not criticize any state for seeking aid from yet another enemy of the US empire for assistance no matter how flawed that state may be.

            Yep, that’s the current notion of what “critical” support looks like. We don’t do that here. Sometime the enemy of your enemy is also your enemy.

        • Eugene V. Debs' Ghost@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish
          11·
          1 day ago

          It’s amazing how Hexbear says you’re a fascist for not supporting Russia, while .world says we’re all Tankies for not supporting the Democrats.

      • moth@anarchist.nexusEnglish
        71·
        3 days ago

        Pro Ukrainian state.

        this is not an either/or situation. because you lack the imagination to envision a third option without ether state, does not have anything to do with anyone else. that is your own shortcoming.

        “free state of Ukraine” follow it up with the Banderite slogan “slava Ukraini”

        ukraine is a region. a free ukraine does not mean one controlled by a state. that is not freedom. also, at no point did @flatworm7591@lemmy.dbzer0.com say that.

        Also my accusations of antisemitism are not “thinly veiled” I am literally telling you that since 2014 Azov and other elements of Ukrainian state forces have literally doing pogroms against not just ethnic Russians in the east, but Roma and Jews all over the country for over 12 years now. If you deny try is I just assume you’re a fascist.

        it is funny you should mention that. since 2014 the russian imperial movement, a neo-nazi monarchist movement in russia has deployed militia to ukraine with the sanction of the russian government. a fact very conveniently left out of pro-russian leftists arguments. moth wonders why that is.

          • Grainne@anarchist.nexusEnglish
            52·
            2 days ago

            How odd that it is only ever HexBear having posts show up in their feed.

            If brigading was so simple, I’d be expecting every other instance to act the same yet that never seems to be the case.

              • Grainne@anarchist.nexusEnglish
                4·
                2 days ago

                I never said every single post here is from HexBear. I said it’s only ever HexBear that brigades.

                Everyone knows you do this shit, it’s the hallmark of your instance. No other instance has this reputation or can ever be found flocking a post en masse to circlejerk yourself as you do.

                • Kefla [she/her, they/them]@hexbear.netEnglish
                  63·
                  2 days ago

                  I never said every single post here is from HexBear. I said it’s only ever HexBear that brigades.

                  You literally said “it is only ever Hexbear having posts show up in their feed”

                  How did you get here if the post didn’t show up in your feed? Are you brigading?

                  This is an unfalsifiable hypothesis. Since “brigading” has no actual definition and is solely defined as “that thing that Hexbear does that I don’t like” then of course Hexbear is the only instance that does it.

                  We’re literally just a very active instance which doesn’t have downvotes so disagreements always create comments. That’s the entire thing. This “brigading” conspiracy theory is unfounded and silly.

    • TankieTanuki [he/him]@hexbear.netEnglish
      107·
      3 days ago

      If your confusion is the result of an unfamiliarity with the counternarratives (rather than mere disagreement) and you have a genuine curiosity, then the first fifteen-and-a-half minutes of this documentary serve as a good summary

    • Commiunism@lemmy.dbzer0.com
      47·
      2 days ago

      “”““Anarchist””“” collaboration with national bourgeois for the defense of the nation state is literally being pro-State https://barbaria.net/2023/06/02/revolutionary-deafitism-and-its-enemies/ (or if you’re allergic to marxism, look at this article by Italian anarchists https://www.federazioneanarchica.org/archivio/archivio_2022/20220722manifestonowar_en.html)

      It doesn’t matter if one side is the aggressor and another is the defender, they’re both fighting to further their national interests, protect their private property while sending proles that they brutalize daily into a meatgrinder. Both sides are capitalist states, both are imperialist by definition.

      Though to be fair, this isn’t the hexbear position for they’re on the side of “”“Russian anti-imperialism”“” (don’t laugh!) and opposition to the west/nato, or in other words supporting a non-western imperialist in prole slaughter

        • Commiunism@lemmy.dbzer0.com
          21·
          2 days ago

          Since forever if you’re not a braindead militarist liberal larping communism/anarchism.

          Nation states aren’t “the people”, they’re a dictatorship of the national bourgeois whose main interest is growth of their national capital and wealth. This necessarily presupposes exploitation and brutalization of workers. During an imperialist war, both the attackers and defenders send their workers to slaughter each other, all for the defense of the aforementioned capital and national bourgeois.

          • therealdries@lemmy.dbzer0.com
            31·
            2 days ago

            Only the privileged entitle themselves to arrogantly float above it all in the way you do, Clyde.

            Nation states aren’t “the people”,

            No they aren’t… but, despite all your comfortable abstractions, they are still filled with “the people.” And to those people the distinction between attacker and defender most definitely does matter.

      • Unruffled [they/them]@lemmy.dbzer0.comM
        2·
        2 days ago

        Well, exactly. All states are a form of oppression. But when two states are duking it out at the expense of their citizens, then I’m still inclined to assign more blame to the invading state, especially when folks try to paint the Russians as “liberators” at the same time they are firing missiles at civilian targets and committing war crimes.

        Imo there should be no apologia for authoritarian states by anarchists. Russia started this war, and is at least equally responsible for inflaming the situation in those regions prior to invading. The idea they just went in to “liberate” russian speakers is laughable statist propaganda… It’s like the US claiming they “liberated” Venezuela or Iran. And while I support self determination, this isn’t what that looks like.

        I don’t feel it’s necessary to list all the ways in which Ukraine is also a shitty state, since hb has done a good job of itemizing them. Maybe turn that critical lens back on Russia now, hb folks, and we might have some progress.

  • moth@anarchist.nexusEnglish
    128·
    3 days ago

    the posts in question:

    moth finds it shocking that pro-Russian statists (one literally named Tankie) might not be welcome in an anarchist comm. moth definitely and sincerely hopes your highly rational and thinly veiled accusations of anti-semitism and racism go over better in this comm. please do not think moth is mocking you, you seem a very serious person.

    • Johnny_Arson [she/her]@hexbear.netOPEnglish
      1911·
      3 days ago

      Nothing I said was pro Russia, the people in Donbas had been fighting a Civil War and defending against progroms and shelling for 12 years before now.

      And despite Tanuki’s username it is a fact people have been resisting kidnappings by the state because they do not want to be press ganged into this war that is clearly not going to end in their favor.

      How is your “free state” free if it is entirely beholden to the US and the west?

      How is it okay to use a Banderite slogan and talk about defending a state that forces people into conscription via kidnapping?

      How is that acceptable in an anarchist forum?

      • moth@anarchist.nexusEnglish
        132·
        3 days ago

        Nothing I said was pro Russia

        freedom for the people in Donbas

        then you agree that freedom also means not being forced to be a part of russia, yes?

        • LemmeAtEm@lemmy.ml
          168·
          3 days ago

          “Freedom is when people do what I say they should do, not what they actively choose for themselves.” -moth, apparently

          “Forced” is when you vote in a referendum and over 95% agrees on it. Dronies (including the ones who style themselves as “anarchists”) love to forget it was the state of Ukraine effectively outlawing the Russian language predominantly spoken by the people of Donbas and then persecuting them for identifying as Russian that sparked the separatist movement in eastern Ukraine in the first place. God forbid these people who are being targeted for being Russian might want to actually, you know, be part of Russia.

          @Johnny_Arson@hexbear.net, don’t expect to get much or any support here, even though you are completely right. Not only is it the same instance as the one where you got banned, this comm is moderated by the same mod who banned you, and many of the users who would have recognized your correct take, including principled anarchists, have already been banned for being “tankies.”

          • moth@anarchist.nexusEnglish
            74·
            3 days ago

            moth, apparently

            freedom is being independent of a government. a strawman is what you just tried.

            including the ones who style themselves as “anarchists"

            are you badjacketing moth? is moth incorrect in believing that is against the rules of both dbzer0 and hexbear? moth would like an apology.

            • LemmeAtEm@lemmy.ml
              115·
              3 days ago

              freedom is being independent of a government.

              What a ridiculous definition of freedom. It is very much something an ancap would say. You make statements like that and then say I’m badjacketing you? lol, you are openly donning that jacket of your own accord, and zipping it up nice and snug for all to see. Just because I made note of what you’re apparently choosing to wear doesn’t mean I’m the one who put it on you. (I will say though, that in my experience, it is always a specific kind of doofus who constantly refers to themselves in third person, though that’s beside the point).

              • moth@anarchist.nexusEnglish
                73·
                3 days ago

                It is very much something an ancap would say.

                moth does not believe you are as smart as you think you are.

                it is always a specific kind of doofus who constantly refers to themselves in third person

                why are you are refusing to use moth’s preferred pronouns? not only that, insulting moth for them as well? you are out of line.

                • Leon_Grotsky [comrade/them]@hexbear.netEnglish
                  116·
                  3 days ago

                  why are you are refusing to use moth’s preferred pronouns?

                  c’mon dude you don’t have to stand on the table baring your entire ass like this, that’s setting aside people can only see your pronouns if they are viewing them from your instance.

                • LemmeAtEm@lemmy.ml
                  106·
                  3 days ago

                  Someone who equates freedom with a lack of government is not in any position to judge the intelligence of others.

                  As for pronouns, now I know you’re just bad faith trolling. I am a nonbinary person, and I do respect people’s pronouns, even when they are people who are unwitting apologists for fascists. The trans/nonbinary community consensus draws a clear line between pronouns and self-referential speech patterns, and it is bad faith trolls (trying to use our respect for pronouns against us) who conflate the two. Pronouns are a linguistic stand-in for a person’s name when you’re not directly addressing them. Pronouns are not a title, they’re not a mark of respect on that person (even though pronouns should be respected). Referring to yourself in the third person is a speech pattern, not a pronoun. As many other trans and nonbinary people have said, self-referring in third person is a stylistic choice about how someone talks about themselves, not a request about how others should refer to them. So who is badjacketing who here?

                  Also it is typical trolling behavior to completely derail a thread with a tangential (bad faith) accusation, especially when they know they have no counter arguments in the actual discussion.

              • moth@anarchist.nexusEnglish
                62·
                3 days ago

                more practical at this current time, perhaps. but seeing as how both sides are conscripting everyone they can to fight this meaningless war started by old white men, moth struggles to see the meaning in it.

        • Johnny_Arson [she/her]@hexbear.netOPEnglish
          1511·
          3 days ago

          They voted to make their own state and the Ukrainian govt started slaughtering them. This is the issue with states you can’t really opt out without support from someone else. And yes Russia is a preferable alternative when the Kiev govt forces had literally been doing pogroms and shelling civilians for seeking independence.

          The only one forcing them to seek help from Russia is the Ukrainian state. It is childish to believe yo can just opt out of your own government when they just try to murder you anyway.

          • moth@anarchist.nexusEnglish
            104·
            3 days ago

            How is your “free state” free if it is entirely beholden to the US and the west?

            in what world do you think “freedom for working class people” means being a part of ukraine? this is internalized propaganda that you are struggling with.

            Russia is a preferable alternative

            your avatar has the pride flag on it. how do you personally reconcile your belief that russia is better with the fact that russia has criminalized queerness?

            also,

            Nothing I said was pro Russia

            Russia is a preferable alternative

            it feels good to be honest, no?