Flanders Festival Ghent says it made decision over lack of ‘clarity’ about incoming conductor Lahav Shani’s views.
While Shani had spoken in favour of “peace and reconciliation” in the past, his attitude towards the “genocidal regime in Tel Aviv” was unclear given his role as the chief conductor of the Israel Philharmonic Orchestra, the festival organisers said.
It seems that every Jewish person is now expected to pass an arbitrary moral purity test in order to participate in polite society.
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Why would non Israeli Jews have to denounce the Israeli genocide of the Palestinians?
The conductor was Israeli.
Every Israeli person maybe, not every Jewish person, they don’t all live in one small part of the world, גדליה.
what? am i supposed to take responsibility for my government? how are you keepin’ up with that?
i said maybe, not every Israeli is responsible for their fascist state, but shit, a lot of them are, even the liberals who always were just fascists and now have no problem with the genocide in Gaza.
I would know, i have to interact with them every day.
I never had any power or representation though, and was always against all of this even if I’m not really active, always concerned with survival and escape, so i don’t think a person like myself is responsible, I’m not gonna point a finger at any powerless person that has to look at this shit from the inside.
So yeah, maybe, it depends.
In a democracy yes. Israeli voted for netenyahu 6 times
may i ask for which government you take responsibility?
I have talked with a handful of Israelis and all of them are heartless racists that support the genocide.
I think the good Israelis are only a few percent.
Sadly true, as an Israeli, i don’t know
manyany others besides my partner that see the genocide for what it is, the situation feels very hopelessMy ex-girlfriend was American and half-Jewish (on her father’s side), thoroughly non-religious and very liberal. But after high school she spent a summer in Israel on kibbutz and somehow it made her completely insane on the subject of the Palestinians. She talked about how they needed to be exterminated and that Israel was completely right in what they were doing (and this was the '90s). If I tried to argue with her she insisted that I couldn’t understand since I’d never been to Israel. It was like talking to someone possessed by a demon.
I’m sorry you had to go through something like that, i can only say I’m vaguely familiar with the feeling of seeing this from someone as close as a significant other.
Hope you’ll find someone new you’ll see eye to eye with.
may i ask when you were visiting Israel?
I have not visited it.
Even the Russians are held accountable for their government and they don’t have fair elections.
yes, stupidity is everywhere.
He is an Israeli citizen and music director of the Israel Philharmonic Orchestra. I’d say he can be seen as representing Israel (Israel, not necessarily the current regime) on a cultural level. Russian athletes can be barred from international events - why is it too much to ask to distance himself from the atrocities in Palestine?
Iirc the decision to ban Russian athletes wasn’t on grounds of what putler is doing, rather the widespread doping that they were engaged in that the IOC simply couldn’t pretend they were all individual failures, but rather a systematic engagement of all Russian athletes in doping, and not their support of the regime.
So the analogy of precedence you propose isn’t very relevant.
As the Olympics was set up to involve all nations and races regardless of background and beliefs, I think a discussion on whether the Israeli athletes or representatives should participate in specific such international events (music, sport, etc) should be included or excluded on basis of their regard (or lack thereof) for human rights.
Despite the complete disregard for human rights that Israel is exhibiting today, the Olympics for example, might consider this not grounds for expelling them, whereas a music festival promoting human rights may choose to expel them instead.
People think this is a personal attack. It’s not (unless this guy actively supports his government). It’s sad that people suffer because of their government actions? Yes. Is it necessary? As a symbolic act of protest against a regime you don’t support, also yes.
I personally don’t understand the logic of this symbolic act of protest, but I often don’t understand how protest is supposed to function. It did pull more attention towards gaza, and attention is everything.
Would a better protest be to keep the invite, but plaster the space with material about the genocide? Let the person quit if this offends them (which would probably be a more sympathetic headline and just as newsworthy) and make a story out of the performance if they don’t (which should be very photogenic).
The logic is telling Israel “your country is not welcome here, we don’t agree with you”, which is different from saying " your people are not welcome here", because only representative are affected
Look at how they never answer your question. It’s incredible how there is people still defend israrl in anyway or shape
Russian athletes are allowed to compete as neutrals in international events, as long as they do not openly endorse the war in Ukraine.
Idf soldiers are allowed to compete
The only reason Russia and Belarus are banned is that basically the entire West was calling for it. That did not happen with Israel. Just looking at the Olympics, the only ones calling for Israel being banned were the Palestinians. Nobody else, not even from fellow Arab countries could get up and complain at the IOC. No wonder nothing happened. Same is unfortunately true for other countries like Myanmar, which is currently also committing a genocide. The West really does not care about that one though. Either way that is.
I don’t care about their thought process. At this point Israel should be treated as Nazi Germany. Germany as a whole was banned from participating in the Olympic Games in 1948 for example
They were banned for at least some time though.
In this particular case, he is not conducting as a representative of Israel or any Israeli organization. These acting as a representative of the Munich Philharmonic.
This is strictly about his national origin and ethnicity.
Such half-assed, predictable, lazy moving goalposts here.
“All Jews now…” (extraordinary statement from you)
“Well no, how about because he’s a citizen of the country perpetrating a genocide, crime of all crimes?”
“Yeah exactly, in this specific case they’re targeting him cuz of his national origin!” (roughly an entire galaxy away from your original claim)
If you’re being disingenuous (my assumption) - go fuck yourself. If you’re actually just this bad at thinking and argumentation, strongly consider sticking to reading the comments of others.
If you’re a U.S. citizen should you have to publicly denounce Trump’s fascism or else get banished from the sane parts of the world?
Yes. Fuck yes.
Even when talking about completely different subjects?
And if so, how often? Do they need a precursor on every post?
Yes, whenever, and if asked.
Tens of millions of US citizens voted in a pedophile. So yes, I’d say you’d have to publicly announce you’re not part of the majority that supports a rapist.
So why aren’t the posts here full of such denials?
I mean, respectfully, what the fuck are you talking about? An enormous amount of content on the fediverse in general, not just here, is literally public disavowal and complaints about our regime.
More moving goalposts. Is he banished from the sane parts of the world? Or did he just have a concert canceled?
Let’s look at your question phrased like you’re arguing in good faith instead! Goes like this:
It was a shitty “gotcha” in the first place, but boy is it worse when it’s accurate. No wonder you resorted to hyperbole.
It’s not meant to be a gotcha, it’s just to try and help people see things from different perspectives.
And sure: how about your version of the question? And extend it to sports coaches and players, movie producers, directors and actors? Store owners and employees?
It would be fully righteous to go hard core here, but probably too inconvenient for most. And many would say that such politics don’t have a place in … whatever they don’t want to deal with the repercussions of having politics have a place in.
There’s also a component of self preservation. It might be unsafe to publically go against one’s own government or it might at least be very bad for one’s career. So damned either way and better to stay apolitical.
At your job do you make a point of stating that you hate Trump and think he’s a moron. Or is that likely to get you unemployed so you keep quiet?
He’s in a position of leadership at a national organization bearing the name of the country doing the genocide. And it’s too much to find out what he thinks about it before allowing him to perform at an event they themselves organized?
That’s a bullshit argument - this story is about one guy, and your attempts to generalize it into something that applies to everyone are dishonest.
All of this protracted benefit of the doubt you’re giving him, this moralizing, bleating “but he might be secretly a good person!” - why?
Your answer doesn’t matter. I know why, and the rest of us do too. Goodbye.
As a us citizen, yes.
How often? I don’t see it on any posts here, and I suspect most are US citizens.
At least once, and you must not be paying close attention then. Trumps fascism is regularly denounced, denigrated, and mocked all over here.
As a US citizen and seeing what’s happening to this place, yes, I would recommend everywhere find out where a given American stands on various issues when deciding to allow them in or not. Easy question.
So do you check the political views of orchestra conductors of every concert you go to? The coaches of each game? The producers and directors of movies you watch? And by that I mean do you insist they definitively make public statements against Trump, not just that they don’t publicly support him?
This habit of asking questions that you incorrectly believe have obvious “gotcha” answers, and which don’t really relate that closely to the issue at hand…really not providing the rhetorical weight you’re hoping for.
The folks running that festival have every right to curate who they invite to perform. That really has nothing to do with what I choose to consume, but yes, I do consider the people behind whatever entertainment I might want to enjoy, as well as where I’m willing to shop. We all should, to whatever degree we can manage. Stupid question.
Finally - these folks are in the business of hosting musical performances, that’s the thing they are there to do, and cancelling one is precisely the opposite of their business model. You understand that right? Don’t you think ANYONE in that position would reach out to the guy and give him the chance to clarify? Don’t you think they did exactly that, and ended up discovering he’s probably a fuckin Zionist?
Anyway, your arguments are too bad to continue to rebut. See ya later.
Yes, it’s about his national origin and ethnicity.
Asking him to denounce the atrocities his country commits is a very reasonable question. Refusing to answer this already tells me enough.
They would ban everyone supporting genocide, it doesn’t matter at all what they’re representing or not representing at the time.
I
The article says that he has previously spoken out in favor of peace and reconciliation. Did you read it?
Even countries who sell arms to isrsel claim to want peace
Yes. But that does not mean, “every jewish person” gets treated like this. They might (because antisemitism is on the rise), but this case is not a good example for that.
And he may have strongly opposed the Netanyahu regime and the article may have watered it down as “in favor of peace and reconciliation” or he may have been paying lip service or whatever. I don’t know that. And yes, this can be a slippery slope: how much is enough “clarity”? Who gets to decide that? And in what cases (Gaza isn’t the only place where atrocities happen)? But people can also think “This is too much. You need to speak up or don’t want to work with you.” without it necessarily being antisemitism.
not supporting a genocide is arbitrary?
Doesn’t seem that difficult of a test to pass.
Denouncing genocide is pretty easy to do.
Put another way: if he did denounce it, would he still be leading the Israeli orchestra? Doubtful.
I see things differently. Condemning genocide is not an arbitrary test related moral purity.
And like Jewish Voice for Peace say:
as well as
I remember liberals being super angry about conservatives requiring all Muslims to “condemn terrorism.”
We’re talking about an Israeli, not a Jew. One who has a prominent role in the cultural life of that country. As a “liberal”, I would not have had an issue with questions being asked if some high profile Saudis were invited to a festival in October 2001.
Whatever helps you sleep at night.
Did any western country apologized for their colonial past aka terrorism
kinda one time at least: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apology_Resolution
(If I understand you correctly. I rather hope there are other examples, it would be a weird thing for America to lead the world in.)
And I remember Iranians and Chinese people being refused entry to places because of things their governments did
Please share because I’d like to learn. I can’t think of a single Chinese or Iranian artist who was banned from a performance or display in a European country.
Not gAlienLifeform, but you really couldn’t search “Europe bans {Iranian,Chinese} immigrants?”
Neither of those articles have anything to do with this. He is not immigrating to Belgium.
He was invited as a member of the Munich Philharmonic, then the invitation was rescinded because the organizers didn’t like the optics of a Jewish Israeli conducting at their festival. I personally find that problematic, and a standard that other artists are not held to, despite war crimes or atrocities committed by their Governments.
Read my first point again.
I’m not arguing about Lahav Shani. I’m arguing against European states barring Iranians & Chinese folks just because their states do XYZ.
I plead no contest on Belgians’ collective decision to cancel his performance based on his political views.
You are missing the point. When did he say that he doesn’t condemn genocide?
Charlie Kirk is dead. You can drop his shtick.
It seems like you are on the attack and defame technique. Pretty hypocritical.
The article literally says that the concert was not canceled because of any of his statements or views. It was cancelled because he is a professional musician in Tel Aviv who is Jewish.
I ask you once again, if that’s not true, then what did he specifically say or do to warrant the cancellation?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DARVO
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning
It’s not sealioning. People are claiming that he refused to condemn genocide, despite nothing of the sort in the article. It is fair to ask someone to explain or defend something that they specifically claim is factual, which has no basis in reality.
you accuse “people” of making unsubstantiated claims, and immediately follow that accusation with your own unsubstantiated claims.
I guess hypocrisy is only wrong when the other side does it?
Oh, so I suppose that nothing exists unless it’s written in the article? No event ever occurred that the article didn’t describe? How much of a sylopsist are you? Lol.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DARVO
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning
Well, considering Israelis aren’t going to receive any justice otherwise, social justice is the next best option.
They only have themselves to blame.
https://theonion.com/dying-gazans-criticized-for-not-using-last-words-to-con-1850925657/
Why are you assuming the religiosity of an Israeli person?
He is literally Jewish.
I have never heard of this type of moral panic over a Palestinian Israeli, or a Druze Israeli for example. It doesn’t seem to be about just citizenship.
Source? The article only confirms that he is Israeli, doesn’t mention his religion at all. Because it’s not fucking relevant.
Russian citizens who refused to condemning the Ukraine invasion have faced similar consequence. There’s plenty of precedent internationally for these sorts of decisions. The only difference here is that Israel has been purposefully supplying propaganda for decades to conflate antizionism with antisemitism.
Yes, he is Jewish. That is his ethnicity. Feel free to look it up.
Where in the article does it say that he refused to condemn anything? It actually says that he has made statements in favor of peace and reconciliation.
Belgian Foreign Minister Maxime Prevot said the cancellation seemed “excessive. …We must not confuse the Jewish community and Israelis with Netanyahu’s policies,”
The German Culture Minister Wolfram Weimer criticized the move as a “disgrace for Europe. …Under the guise of supposed criticism of Israel, a cultural boycott is being carried out here,” he said in a statement.
What’s happening in Gaza is Israeli policy, the majority of them support it.
Uh huh
I feel like maybe your confusion comes from the fact that you don’t realize over 20% of Israeli citizens are of Palestinian ethnicity.
Give me a break.
Do you know of an example? I’m always open to learn.
Thought I would put a little work into your question; I checked a random musician from this list and looked for recent news. They’ve literally been doing charity shows to get support for gaza.
It seems like some groups of people in israel feel there is an emergency that cannot be ignored; and some who do not.
Sorry sir your victim card has expired.
What a disgusting statement, when someone who has spoken up for peace and reconciliation is banned from a European country based on the city where he was born and his ethnicity. It wouldn’t be right for someone from China, it wouldn’t be right for someone from Syria, it wouldn’t be right in ANY circumstance.
nitpick: they were banned not from a country, but from a music hall; no?
Yes, actually that’s fair. A German Philharmonic was canceled from a Belgian festival simply because the conductor is Israeli.
Based on the comments and vote, it seems that most people here think that is justified and appropriate.
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Liberal Zionists are no different to any other Zionist, they are just better at dressing up apartheid and genocide in palatable, rhetorically pleasing language for Western audiences. Unless Israelis renounce Zionism and call for full equality of Palestinians they are only there as ambassadors to culture wash the crimes of their colony.
You sound like the type who supported Trump when he said, “there’s good people on both sides” if you actually think that limp two-sided non-statement is worth a damn. It’s laughable.
How long does that take?
Do you deny the genocide in Gaza?
Would be true if it was a non jewish israeli
The Israeli Philharmonic Orchestra performs with the IDF Orchestra.
Soon they’ll have to wear special armbands and the idiots captured by Iranian propaganda still won’t pull their heads out of their asses.