• davidgro@lemmy.world
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    2 days ago

    Like what?

    They are already doing renewables, which don’t have steady output. This is to provide a steady baseline.

    • The energy grid of tomorrow is is in no need of a baseline supply.

      The baseline is often referred to as baseline supply, but in reality it’s baseline demand that always needs to be met. A steady supply made most sense in the past, but that’s not the case anymore thanks to renewables. Several countries already produce so much power at peak hours, the supply from renewables exceeds the total demand significantly (leading to negative energy prices).

      Because renewables are the cheapest source of power by some distance, this means that it’s economically the best option to switch all other power generation off. Meaning that to ensure the baseline supply is met, you need a flexible source of power, one that quickly scales up and down without pricing itself out of the market doing so.

      The renewable answer to this is batteries. The fossil fuel answer is natural gas reactors. Both options are cheaper than nuclear.

      Nuclear takes too long to build and there’s just no economic case for it. It’s considerably better to invest in cheaper options with a much faster return on decarbonization.

    • mosiacmango@lemm.ee
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      2 days ago

      Renewables and batteries have steady output and can be built much faster and cheaper than nuclear. It’s why 94% of all new power generation globally in 2024 was renewables.

      • JohnDClay@sh.itjust.works
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        2 days ago

        Batteries plus solar to equal a constant output power is much more expensive than nuclear. It’s when you have other sources that you can have less storage that solar gets cheaper.

        • Saleh@feddit.org
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          2 days ago

          Denmark is surrounded by sea. Offshore wind power is pretty reliable and it is a lie that solar and batteries would be more expensive than building nuclear power plant. Plenty of households theses days buy solar with battery and safe money with it comparing to buying from the grid. And nuclear power is the most expensive in the grid. For Europe nuclear is at around 20 cents/kWh, coal around 8-10, lignite around 5, and solar is down to less then 5 cents/kWh.

          Furthermore nuclear power will get more expensive the more demand is there as Uranium is a finite resource. And the most likely trading partner will be Russia or countries under Russias influence.

          • JohnDClay@sh.itjust.works
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            2 days ago

            Finite resource goes for battery minerals even more so, and solar production capacity is also limited.

            Agree on offshore wind, but it’s also got intermittency.

            You can save money with solar and batteries, but only after about 30 years. That’s a much longer payback time than any other forms like nuclear. Plus you wouldn’t have representative grid loads overnight.

            The costs you cited are just for the panel electricity, not taking into account any storage.

            Right now it costs about $400/kwh. You’ll need about 12 hours storage to cover over night, which means about $50k/kw. If the lifespan is 20 years, (which is generous) that means the added cost is 28 cents per kwh just for the storage. I’m sure the batteries will get more efficient, but they will also be in more demand, so that price could go up or down.

            Do you have better numbers showing 100% solar is cheaper than nuclear? Why is nuclear bad? It’s less deaths than even wind energy and is a proven technology to minimize emissions. Why limit yourself?

            • Saleh@feddit.org
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              2 days ago

              https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=45596

              Utility-scale battery storage costs decreased nearly 70% between 2015 and 2018

              So we are looking at much lower numbers in a few years as the trend has continued.

              You can save money with solar and batteries, but only after about 30 years.

              That is false.

              Example for US around 7.5 years with tax credit -> pessimistically 15 years

              Example for Germany 7 years w.o., 12.5 years with battery storage. -> pessimistically 20 years.

              hat’s a much longer payback time than any other forms like nuclear.

              That is false. Take the spanish nuclear industry for example

              Nuclear power plants are not amortized. Every year they invest around 300 million Euro. Nuclear generation is currently incurring losses due to a disproportionate, discriminatory and confiscatory taxation.

              The amortization of nuclear power plants is not complete. In fact, from this time to the end of its operation it will be necessary to invest around €3 billion to maintain the plants in optimal safety and reliability conditions.

              Take Germany for an example

              Bei neugebauten Kernkraftwerken in Deutschland werden laut dem Bundesministerium für Wirtschaft und Klimaschutz Gestehungskosten zwischen 14 und 19 Cent pro Kilowattstunde erwartet. Das Forum Ökologisch-Soziale Marktwirtschaft gibt in einer Studie für Greenpeace Energy an, dass die gesamtgesellschaftlichen Kosten in Deutschland im Jahr 2021 zwischen 26 und 38 Cent pro Kilowattstunde lagen.

              Allerdings geraten auch abgeschriebene Kernkraftwerke in Märkten, in denen die Strompreise infolge aktueller wirtschaftlicher Entwicklungen wie des Schiefergasbooms in den USA sowie des Ausbaus von erneuerbaren Energien in vielen Staaten der Welt gefallen sind, wirtschaftlich unter Druck. In den USA wurden deshalb in den letzten Jahren mehrere Kernkraftwerke lange vor ihrem genehmigten Laufzeitende außer Betrieb genommen.

              So nuclear power at best only generates profits if the market is arbitrarily restricted and the power plants are protected against low energy prices, which in turn means to stifle economic growth and competitiveness in everything else.

              More realistically new nuclear power plants are a mass grave of capital. See UKs hinkley point now at more than 50 billion € for 3.2 GW. That is a whooping 15,625 €/kW.