Many people have as an immutable axiom “I am a good person”
When you suggest they are doing something bad, like contributing to climate change, this clashes with that axiom.
That clash causes discomfort. Most people are, frankly, lazy cowards. They could accept that they are not being a good person all the time, and update their axiom. But that’s scary and feels bad. They could also try to do something about climate change (or whatever the topic is. see also: veganism), but that’s also hard. It’s far easier to just lash out at the source of discomfort.
The back-fire effect explains why so many people love to watch Fox News, even when they’ve admitted in court that they’re not news and no rational person would take them seriously. Reinforcing beliefs through propaganda is comforting - and no amount logic or fact checking is going to change it.
Honestly that’s much more respectable. Someone who says “Yeah, I had a hamburger at the bbq. I know eating meat is bad for lots of reasons, but it was already there, and I can’t always live my ideals” is so, so, so much better than “No fuck you meat is good for the environment actually I’m a good person shut up”
I don’t think they’re lazy cowards - or rather, I think “lazy cowards” is something lazy cowards say to explain away lazy cowards they disagree with - I think they grow up in an environment where admitting fault or even suspending judgment is something that will get you attacked or taken advantage of. Whether by parents, teachers, classmates, friends, politicians, cops, priests, or gods.
Children aren’t great at lying. If they don’t believe they are a good person, people will notice that self-doubt and take advantage. Believing you are axiomatically good is safer, protecting you from bullies of all kinds who are looking for someone who won’t resist being punished.
Properly dealing with climate change often requires a major lifestyle change that is largely outside of people’s control. It’s natural that people who haven’t processed their childhood schemas would respond to it according to those schemas, and that for people whose childhood schemas are centered around avoiding responsibility they respond by stall tactics like pretending climate change isn’t real so people waste time proving it to them.
Veganism is not a solution to climate change. First anything that requires everybody to agree on one solution is always going to be a non-starter. But also veganism just doesn’t work for everybody, like myself, I became so malnourished that I nearly died. It’s simply not possible for everybody to be vegan and still get all of the nutrients they need. Especially in this economy.
“in this economy” veganism is cheaper than vegetarianism is cheaper than omnivorism
If you became malnourished you weren’t eating vegan, you were eating junk food.
But to actually address your point, we don’t need everyone to be vegan, or for those that do to be vegan consistently. Even cutting consumption of animal products by a third would have a huge impact.
my dude, meat is already just a seasoning in my meals unless we’re doing BBQ. let people pick their own diets. they might have specific reasons that the one you’ve decided is best doesn’t work. i end up in the hospital rather frequently if i try to eat vegan. it really did not go well and the solutions we could think up to keep me out of the hospital were to either take out the foods with nutrients (because of course those were the ones putting me in the hospital) or to add in cheeses, eggs, and meats. i’ve always kind of had these two bucket list goals: first, to eat one of everything and rise to the top of the food chain, and second, to stay out of the hospital. so like, veganism really didn’t seem morally compatible with those life goals and i instead eat a lot of delicious delicious gyro and empanada (from the empanada bear)
Right you know everything about my life and what my nutritionist and I talked about at the time. Yeah… I fucking hate responses like this.
For the record I became malnourished because it was impossible to afford the number of calories I needed without meat or dairy. And even though that was some years ago I can pretty much guarantee you that that’s still going to be the case in small towns like the one I was in at the time. Veganism is only cheaper than anything else if you don’t need 4000 calories a day to stay alive and have options that aren’t Walmart to shop at.
it was impossible to afford the number of calories I needed without meat or dairy.
… Because meat and dairy are massively subsidized. If we wanted veganism to be a part of mitigating the climate crisis then it would obviously involve changes in economic policy.
Many people have as an immutable axiom “I am a good person”
When you suggest they are doing something bad, like contributing to climate change, this clashes with that axiom.
That clash causes discomfort. Most people are, frankly, lazy cowards. They could accept that they are not being a good person all the time, and update their axiom. But that’s scary and feels bad. They could also try to do something about climate change (or whatever the topic is. see also: veganism), but that’s also hard. It’s far easier to just lash out at the source of discomfort.
The oatmeal did a comic on basically this topic: https://theoatmeal.com/comics/believe
The back-fire effect explains why so many people love to watch Fox News, even when they’ve admitted in court that they’re not news and no rational person would take them seriously. Reinforcing beliefs through propaganda is comforting - and no amount logic or fact checking is going to change it.
… yeah we’re basically fucked as a species.
Good thing my axiom is, “I’m a hypocrite just like everybody else, but at least I know it.”
Honestly that’s much more respectable. Someone who says “Yeah, I had a hamburger at the bbq. I know eating meat is bad for lots of reasons, but it was already there, and I can’t always live my ideals” is so, so, so much better than “No fuck you meat is good for the environment actually I’m a good person shut up”
I don’t think they’re lazy cowards - or rather, I think “lazy cowards” is something lazy cowards say to explain away lazy cowards they disagree with - I think they grow up in an environment where admitting fault or even suspending judgment is something that will get you attacked or taken advantage of. Whether by parents, teachers, classmates, friends, politicians, cops, priests, or gods.
Children aren’t great at lying. If they don’t believe they are a good person, people will notice that self-doubt and take advantage. Believing you are axiomatically good is safer, protecting you from bullies of all kinds who are looking for someone who won’t resist being punished.
Properly dealing with climate change often requires a major lifestyle change that is largely outside of people’s control. It’s natural that people who haven’t processed their childhood schemas would respond to it according to those schemas, and that for people whose childhood schemas are centered around avoiding responsibility they respond by stall tactics like pretending climate change isn’t real so people waste time proving it to them.
Good job spotting the ironic tension! Now can you explain how the paragraphs below it help resolve that tension?
I can’t
Veganism is not a solution to climate change. First anything that requires everybody to agree on one solution is always going to be a non-starter. But also veganism just doesn’t work for everybody, like myself, I became so malnourished that I nearly died. It’s simply not possible for everybody to be vegan and still get all of the nutrients they need. Especially in this economy.
“in this economy” veganism is cheaper than vegetarianism is cheaper than omnivorism
If you became malnourished you weren’t eating vegan, you were eating junk food.
But to actually address your point, we don’t need everyone to be vegan, or for those that do to be vegan consistently. Even cutting consumption of animal products by a third would have a huge impact.
my dude, meat is already just a seasoning in my meals unless we’re doing BBQ. let people pick their own diets. they might have specific reasons that the one you’ve decided is best doesn’t work. i end up in the hospital rather frequently if i try to eat vegan. it really did not go well and the solutions we could think up to keep me out of the hospital were to either take out the foods with nutrients (because of course those were the ones putting me in the hospital) or to add in cheeses, eggs, and meats. i’ve always kind of had these two bucket list goals: first, to eat one of everything and rise to the top of the food chain, and second, to stay out of the hospital. so like, veganism really didn’t seem morally compatible with those life goals and i instead eat a lot of delicious delicious gyro and empanada (from the empanada bear)
Right you know everything about my life and what my nutritionist and I talked about at the time. Yeah… I fucking hate responses like this.
For the record I became malnourished because it was impossible to afford the number of calories I needed without meat or dairy. And even though that was some years ago I can pretty much guarantee you that that’s still going to be the case in small towns like the one I was in at the time. Veganism is only cheaper than anything else if you don’t need 4000 calories a day to stay alive and have options that aren’t Walmart to shop at.
… Because meat and dairy are massively subsidized. If we wanted veganism to be a part of mitigating the climate crisis then it would obviously involve changes in economic policy.
just saying this doesn’t change the material conditions
I doubt it. did you try that? can you show me on this graph when you started?
denying others experience doesn’t change it
So, to clarify, veganism was a separate example of things that cause a strong emotional reaction.
Second of all, I don’t really believe you but I don’t especially care.