cross-posted from: https://lemmy.ca/post/59455315
Former Minnesota Governor Jesse Ventura says the people of his state should consider leaving the United States. In an interview on the SpinSisters podcast that premiered Saturday, Ventura pitched his plan by saying that it’s clear President Donald Trump doesn’t want the state.
“How about since Trump dislikes Minnesota so bad and we’re so out of control, let’s join Canada. Instead of Canada becoming the 51st state of America and lose their healthcare… I’d like to see Minnesota, all of us become Canadians,” Ventura said. Make this part of Canada, because it’s obvious Donald Trump don’t want us. It’s obviously he’s ready to fracture the whole country for his own folly."
Reading the comments, and disregarding that Ventura was just making a point and not seriously suggesting secession, it seems that people are assuming that Minnesota would simply join Canada as a single unit with the current population as it is.
Obviously that’s not what would happen. Canada wouldn’t be getting a 47%-magat population in the deal. First, those people wouldn’t want to secede or go to Canada. They would move to another state before they’d let that happen. Second, Canada wouldn’t just let anyone in just because they were from Minnesota. They’d screen them and decide who to let in. Plus there would be USians from other states trying to move to Minnesota to get in on it. It would be chaotic and messy. Who knows how or if they’d even be able to make it work.
A more likely scenario would be some states seceding, a civil war and major population redistribution, then in the aftermath depending on if the seceding states won independence, maybe a deal with some of them would be made to be annexed by Canada. Or maybe negotiations with certain states would take place during the war regarding future annexation, and Canada might even help them in the war. Who knows.
We don’t want it. Minnesota voted 47% for Trump, and the Democrats are a right-wing party too from Canadian perspective, a massive block of far-right voters like this joining Canada would be devastating.
Americans need to sort their own shit out, not come crawling to Canada to do it for them. We’ve got our own issues to deal with.
The whole thing is silliness to make a point…like Alberta separation. But…
…I wouldn’t be so sure with this positioning of Minnesotans, or any Americans, so far right of Canada. The American system has been gerrymandered and moved away from democracy in various ways…to the point where the actual people might be more aligned with Canada than you believe.
The only hardcore sticking point, in my estimation, would be guns. It would be a non-starter for too many on both sides.
That 47%-for-Trump figure cannot be explained by gerrymandering, it’s a state-wide figure.
Frankly, I’m trying to make a point here too. I’m pointing out how even when Americans are supposedly being “nice” they’re often still grounding their niceness in unspoken assumptions of American exceptionalism. A bit of America going “we’ll just go join Canada and surely Canada will want to have us” has the same underlying feeling that obviously everyone would like to be American and join America if they could.
Sure it can…Minnesota and US-wide. Even though voter turnout in that state is relatively high…the last federal election saw higher than average Republican turnout and lower than average Democrat turnout.
Furthermore, voting intentions for Trump have fallen dramatically in Minnesota for obvious reasons…while voting against him has seen almost the same rise.
Additionally, voting for Trump isn’t the same as being conservative…there’s are very large cohorts of people who were for example: low information/previously apolitical, the Trump left, and independents and libertarians…it was a motley coalition.
I’d put actual hard conservative support in Minnesota in the 30-35% range. There are far too many people who would benefit from cheaper and higher quality healthcare and education immediately to maintain a number anywhere near 47%.
It’s not a secret that Republicans and conservatives in general can win elections with these low numbers…and round we go.
The point made above though is that anyone voting Democrat is extremely conservative by Canadian politics too; how many Minnesotans are currently willing to vote independent?
I think the reason that Democrats are in trouble is because they don’t represent their voters. There’s a chasm between policy and opinion. That, and they need to win elections by at least 3 and up to 10 points because of how corrupt the US “Democracy” is.
I’m Canadian and I’ve spent some time down in the US…I don’t consider myself to have radically different views…even from many American conservatives…except on a couple wedge issues. The problem, as I see it, isn’t that we’re different…it’s that there are people paying big bucks to convince us that we are.
The fact you don’t at all hnderstand why we wouldn’t want you, aren’t understanding what this person is saying, and seem to want to tell us what the problem is despite us laying out why we don’t like you in very clear language is exactly the kind of bullshit that makes us want to stay far, far away from that garbage.
The US sucks, and even at its best it’s nowhere near even the mediocrity that is Canada. We do not need to tip the scales even further right, we do not need to throw gasoline on the fire.
You didn’t engage with anything I wrote and just ranted about what you wanted to reply to.
I’m Canadian…and I stayed no opinions in my reply, just the lay of the land as I see it. I agree that the US sucks, agree that Canada is mediocre and getting worse, and I absolutely do not want Americans joining us…especially the gun nuts, fundamentalists etc.
All I was saying is that we’re a lot closer to each other than all this hyperbole and combative rhetoric would have us believe…Minnesota and isn’t some monolith of conservative boogeymen…they’re mostly nice and reasonable people, and there’s many who would appreciate what makes us better than them.
You really think the only sticking point is guns? Seriously? I mean, us Canadians are largely politically quite ignorant and most of our knowledge is vibes-based parroting of things our parents said when we were children so fuck it, sure, whatever, dude. And hey, we’re already dumb enough that we see the US and still vote nearly half for PP so there’s that. Maybe MAGA actually would be welcome.
No, I dont think that. Are you just trying to find things to argue about? Sounds like we generally agree but you want to fight?
I wouldn’t say “Canadians are quite ignorant”, speak for yourself…or maybe just conservative Canadians.
You said that you wouldn’t put the US super far right of Canada. At first I argued but honestly, with our level of ignorance despite the facts screaming at us, it’s pretty correct to say that we are largely a center-right nation right now and only getting further from progressiveness.
I’m speaking for the country as a whole since that’s the level of generalization this conversation already started with(state-wide in Minnesota’s case). We, meaning Canadians as a whole, are quite ignorant of politics, generally just doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result because learning about new things is harder than just stereotyping the branding of our ideas of each party. Has all the energy of Conservatives genuinely believing that the Liberals are woke progressives just for the majority of the country.
Not Minnesota, no. It’s not in the Bible Belt…they love hockey…they endure the cold. I think there’s more in common there with much of Canada than there are differences. It’s not the only difference…but we couldn’t just move the border because we’d get flooded with guns…and half of them would literally revolt if they had to follow our gun rules. It’s a small state…but there’s 6 million of them and they’d overwhelm us.
Yeah…Canada has pretty much lost sight of it’s roots of being distinct and different from the US. We slide more and more into a capitalist hellscape. Most of our stores are American…Canadians consume less and less media that’s culturally Canadian…our right wingers tend not to differentiate themselves from American right wingers…and an increasing number of them prefer American right wingers to Canadian left wingers…and vice versa. It’s happened mostly in my lifetime and it’s depressing. Very recently…20-30 years ago Canadians understood your message: that American left wingers are to the right of Canadian right wingers…but that’s all changed…I don’t know exactly when it happened…but we’ve become more homogenized.
Everybody in my circles is educated about politics, and we generally understand it better because of our education and complicated party system…but yeah…we’re miles from being educated enough
Look, this was already settled already. How about instead of running from the problems our country is facing we, like idk, actually deal with them. Secession is a chickenshit non-answer.
I think of secession as a catalyst more than anything. That’s how a civil war starts. The US wouldn’t allow it.
I think Minnesota even bringing it up would mean a lot. Why do I have to pay federal taxes for the federal government to occupy our cities.
In the US it can be no more than a masturbatory thought experiment. As I said, that was settled, and you know it was bad enough when southern republicans would talk like that with their whole “The South Will Rise Again”. No the fuck it won’t, but boy will it, and the Republican party in general, let the oldest trick in the CIA handbook for regime change work on them. They fell for a ringer.
Falling to republican talking points and empty threats is a waste of energy that could otherwise be used to do actual good.
You might be the most delusional person I’ve read an opinion from on here if you think another civil war and dissolution of the union isn’t possible or even likely this point in time.
Just because “it was settled” in the first civil war doesn’t mean it’s settled now and forever, thats not how anything works at all.
Don’t bother responding I don’t have time for the naive so you’re blocked
Uh huh.👍✌️
Sounds like what the British thought before the revolutionary war. When the government stops giving a shit about laws and the constitution. There is going to be a breaking point. In Minnesota we have been following the rules, staying peaceful, yet they have not turned down the occupation.
But eventually that will run out. “Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable” -JFK
Empires come and go with time. Look at any point in history.
Y’all have been done wrong. I’m not arguing that at all. And if the country balkanizes then all bets are off. But if not, we have on record how a state that attempts to secede will be dealt with. Following the rules and staying peaceful isn’t going to help you either. One way or another, either in your yard or mine, fighting is going to be with more than words and signs.
Agreed. Nobody wins. But right now, our communities and neighbors are being ripped from their homes, walking around streets, in public.
Eventually people will say enough is enough if our state or federal government doesn’t change anything. And right now, words and signs don’t seem to be doing anything. Just trying to stay hopeful, while I can.
Arm and train while you can too, if you are comfortable owning weapons and can afford to get one. Private sales are best for privacy. If the violence just isn’t for you, learn how to give emergency medical care, stopping bleeding, CPR, and the like, and carry what supplies aren’t too inconvenient. Hope and effort are all we’ve got left.
Eh… I agree about fighting, but not the chicken shit part
I mean…it’s Jesse Ventura…but it’s hyperbole to make a point, I’d imagine.
You know I ignored his name entirely. The suggestion makes more sense now.
Yeah…although he’s often a thoughtful dude and he’s surprisingly knowledgeable about politics…he’ll always be the bloviating sensationalist.
We’re in strange times…and who knows what will happen…but these separation anxieties on both sides of the border are just heightened because of the age we live in.
I spent years in British Columbia, and if you ran in my circles you might actually be convinced that the Cascadia movement had legs, for example. It doesn’t…it just goes to a fever pitch when the other people are in charge.
Jesse “The body” Ventura may be my favorite Alex Jones guest (in that he actually tells Jones that a bunch of his ideas don’t work in actual governance and gave some surprisingly reasonable takes) but I’m still not sure he’s a reasonable person to quote. Also on the competition for favorite guest, Alex Jones once accidentally got a really sweet Astronaut to call in who really just wanted to talk about how awesome space and science were, and wouldn’t go down any conspiracy rabbit holes. He didn’t actually know who Jones was but wanted to spread a lovely message. Had a cut message from his daughter or granddaughter too (it was oddly unclear).
Lmfao, goodbye Alberta, hello Minnesota, Washington, Oregon, California…
I could see Canada allowing a single state with only 5 million-ish people like Minnesota become a part of Manitoba or a new province if that was less problematic. No way they are going to take on Minnesota, Washington, Oregon, and California and suddenly make themselves a 1/3 minority in their own country.
I suppose that’s true. Besides, California would never want to join anyone
Canada could do the first three. California wouldn’t work though. California and Canada have populations that are about equal. It wouldn’t be California joining Canada, it would be California and Canada merging to form one new country. MN, WA, and OR could join Canada without completely upending the demographics of the country. But if all of these states joined, and Alberta left, a comfortable majority of Canada’s entire population would be citizens of former US states. That’s just the US annexing Canada by another name.
Unfortunately USA is not a free country, and secession is illegal.
History shows that military force will be used in case states try to secede.Some people don’t care. Secession can still happen, in order for secession to happen, you need a lot of powerful and wealthy countries on board to support said secession and get more people on board
It doesn’t matter how many other countries you have on board if the Federal government of USA won’t allow it.
Secession can’t happen is the default. To change that a lot of ifs are required, both a lot and some very big ones.
No country is more powerful than USA, and even if there were such countries, they have no right to interfere in internal affairs of USA.
USA is extremely undemocratic and authoritative compared to EU, where the states have way better protections and are allowed to leave the union.
If Americans think the “world” can help them think again. Because they neither can or will.If there’s a will, there’s a way
It’s very easy for secession to be legal. You just have to have the federal government on board with it. Someone could absolutely run for president on a platform of, “I’ll let states secede from the union. If you want to go, I won’t stop you.” What SCOTUS says is irrelevant. If the president simply refused to send in the military to suppress any rebellion, secession would be fully legal.
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If states start to secede, the administration will be forced to face reality. Tear shitlers kingdom apart.
They won’t. They’ll just declare martial law and make Minnesota an actual war zone.
no new england called it first
It’s no more silly than Alberta joining the US.
I do enjoy the idea, but I feel we have to call it out just like we do every time Texas talks about leaving. This issue has been settled (violently).
If you get a majority of the northern population centers and economies to seceed it would be more feasible, but it would result in an actual shooting civil war. One state (with the exception of California) isn’t enough to go it alone.
This issue has been settled (violently).
It hasn’t been settled at all. All it would take for secession to be legal and an available option would be for someone to get elected president on a platform of “I’ll let states secede.” That’s literally all it would take. If the person commanding the military just refuses to use it to put down a secession, secession will happen.
Just another indicator that those with the power to lead will do anything except fight back.
@Sine_Fine_Belli I mean, Mn is already colder than anything reasonably habitable… at this point, why not?
Remember, when the northern part of Minnesota ends, the southern part of Canada begins and Canada is the world’s prefered choice for immigration. Other things are more important than climate.
To be fair, the whole state is further north than Toronto.
