Article is paywalled, so thanks for posting the actual study. This section seems in direct conflict with the article’s title:
Given the … clear evidence that the epicenter of the SARS-CoV-2 pandemic was at one of only four markets in Wuhan that sold live wildlife from plausible intermediate host mammal species, either the closest-inferred ancestor or the direct ancestor of SARS-CoV-2 likely moved from an area in or around Yunnan province, to Hubei province, via the wild and farmed animal trade.
In sum, the study doesn’t challenge that Covid-19 originated in Wuhan; but instead, explores the genetic backgrounds of the bats with the closest links to Covid-19.
Ah so it was a leak from the biggest bioweapon lab of all, the natural world where things evolve to kill other things.
I’m not going to comment on the wildlife food trade in China because I don’t know that much about it, but just wanted to point out that nearly all of history’s worst diseases have something to do with humans wanting to eat meat. And it’s happening again with that new bird flu we’re completely unprepared for. Might be something to look into if we’re concerned about humanity going extinct from a global pandemic ¯\(ツ)/¯
Nearly all of history’s worst diseases have come from animals, and animals have those diseases whether we eat them or not. Factory farming certainly enhances the danger, but cows don’t stop existing just because we don’t eat beef. There is, however, also an upside to meat consumption: being around/eating animals all the time also builds up your immune system’s defenses against diseases that originate in those animals. See: indigenous people in the Americas dying in droves to diseases they had no immunity to because they didn’t farm/ranch animals. I mean and also the smallpox blankets, but you get my point.
Humans need to go close to the infected animal to get infected.
To some extent yes, but ‘get close to’ is pretty broad: breathe contaminated air in the general vicinity of animals, drink water they’ve pissed or shit in, etc.
Oh, so being exposed to new viruses reduces the risk of dying to a virus you got … because you were exposed to it?
That is in fact how a vaccine/our immune system works, yes.
breathe contaminated air in the general vicinity of animals, drink water they’ve pissed or shit in, etc.
Don’t go near animals. Boil water before drinking. Simple as.
That is in fact how a vaccine/our immune system works, yes.
Vaccines work using either diluted toxins, or increasingly, proteins / RNA that just look somewhat like the real thing. The immune system works by enough of the population dying off until only those with the necessary mutations are left.
Animals breathe, just like we do, they can expel airborne viruses that can travel for hundreds, perhaps even thousands of miles. ‘Don’t go near animals’ is like saying ‘just don’t get wet’ in a rain storm: the world is full of animals and they utterly suffuse every aspect of our life in ways that might surprise you.
Vaccines work using either diluted toxins
I don’t know what ‘diluted toxins’ has to do with viruses and immunology since toxins are a rather different matter entirely, but vaccines work (the non-mRNA ones anyway) by infecting you with a weakened version of the virus so that your immune system can learn to identify it without it overwhelming you. Once it learns to identify that disease it will know how to produce proteins and such that can attack the full version (same DNA) should you ever come across it.
The immune system works by enough of the population dying off until only those with the necessary mutations are left.
Let me state in the sincerest possible terms: lolwut?
It’s not about mutation, the immune system can ‘learn’ and ‘evolve’ over the course of a single human’s lifetime (see: the description of how vaccines work above), it’s not something that you either have a good one or you don’t (autoimmune diseases aside) and the people with bad ones don’t live long enough to reproduce or whatever, your immune system - like your brain - learns by exposure. So being exposed to those diseased animals is literally the only means by which to become immune to them. Viruses do mutate pretty quickly though, so you get the occasional plague/pandemic that overwhelms people’s immune systems when they change enough to not be recognizable to our immune system anymore.
airborne viruses that can travel for hundreds, perhaps even thousands of miles
Airborne viruses usually travel about two metres (hence the two metre social distancing rules for Covid-19). Even if a single virus somehow travels farther - perhaps by hitching a ride on a vehicle - it is unlikely to cause a successful infection, because you need enough of them (‘viral load’) to overwhelm host defences.
I don’t know what ‘diluted toxins’ has to do with viruses and immunology since toxins are a rather different matter entirely
Vaccines work in different ways. The oldest method is what you described - attenuated viruses. Newer ones usually do not contain active viruses. They either have inactivated viruses, or, increasingly, just the viral proteins or mRNA. This reduces the risk of the vaccine causing harm to the recipient.
the immune system can ‘learn’ and ‘evolve’ over the course of a single human’s lifetime
If the person survives, their immune system may learn to identify and defend against that virus. Or it might just forget. Or it might cause random damage due to cytokine storms. Or it might forget all previous information. And in any case, some percentage of the population will die.
Thinking that infections are good because they will help increase immunity is like thinking that a country constantly being at war is good because then they’ll always be ready for war. Particularly when you can give the same immunity at a fraction of the risk using vaccines that just have some proteins or mRNA.
If the virus originated in a wide area around Yunnan/Hubei (the latter of which is where Wuhan is) then it seems pretty unlikely that it came from a single source within Wuhan, right? I agree that the headline might be a bit ambiguous, but it’s like saying ‘It came from all over Texas’ vs ‘It came specifically from El Paso.’ But I haven’t read the study myself.
Article is paywalled, so thanks for posting the actual study. This section seems in direct conflict with the article’s title:
In sum, the study doesn’t challenge that Covid-19 originated in Wuhan; but instead, explores the genetic backgrounds of the bats with the closest links to Covid-19.
Ah so it was a leak from the biggest bioweapon lab of all, the natural world where things evolve to kill other things.
I’m not going to comment on the wildlife food trade in China because I don’t know that much about it, but just wanted to point out that nearly all of history’s worst diseases have something to do with humans wanting to eat meat. And it’s happening again with that new bird flu we’re completely unprepared for. Might be something to look into if we’re concerned about humanity going extinct from a global pandemic ¯\(ツ)/¯
Nearly all of history’s worst diseases have come from animals, and animals have those diseases whether we eat them or not. Factory farming certainly enhances the danger, but cows don’t stop existing just because we don’t eat beef. There is, however, also an upside to meat consumption: being around/eating animals all the time also builds up your immune system’s defenses against diseases that originate in those animals. See: indigenous people in the Americas dying in droves to diseases they had no immunity to because they didn’t farm/ranch animals. I mean and also the smallpox blankets, but you get my point.
Humans need to go close to the infected animal to get infected.
Oh, so being exposed to new viruses reduces the risk of dying to a virus you got … because you were exposed to it?
To some extent yes, but ‘get close to’ is pretty broad: breathe contaminated air in the general vicinity of animals, drink water they’ve pissed or shit in, etc.
That is in fact how a vaccine/our immune system works, yes.
Don’t go near animals. Boil water before drinking. Simple as.
Vaccines work using either diluted toxins, or increasingly, proteins / RNA that just look somewhat like the real thing. The immune system works by enough of the population dying off until only those with the necessary mutations are left.
Animals breathe, just like we do, they can expel airborne viruses that can travel for hundreds, perhaps even thousands of miles. ‘Don’t go near animals’ is like saying ‘just don’t get wet’ in a rain storm: the world is full of animals and they utterly suffuse every aspect of our life in ways that might surprise you.
I don’t know what ‘diluted toxins’ has to do with viruses and immunology since toxins are a rather different matter entirely, but vaccines work (the non-mRNA ones anyway) by infecting you with a weakened version of the virus so that your immune system can learn to identify it without it overwhelming you. Once it learns to identify that disease it will know how to produce proteins and such that can attack the full version (same DNA) should you ever come across it.
Let me state in the sincerest possible terms: lolwut?
It’s not about mutation, the immune system can ‘learn’ and ‘evolve’ over the course of a single human’s lifetime (see: the description of how vaccines work above), it’s not something that you either have a good one or you don’t (autoimmune diseases aside) and the people with bad ones don’t live long enough to reproduce or whatever, your immune system - like your brain - learns by exposure. So being exposed to those diseased animals is literally the only means by which to become immune to them. Viruses do mutate pretty quickly though, so you get the occasional plague/pandemic that overwhelms people’s immune systems when they change enough to not be recognizable to our immune system anymore.
Airborne viruses usually travel about two metres (hence the two metre social distancing rules for Covid-19). Even if a single virus somehow travels farther - perhaps by hitching a ride on a vehicle - it is unlikely to cause a successful infection, because you need enough of them (‘viral load’) to overwhelm host defences.
Vaccines work in different ways. The oldest method is what you described - attenuated viruses. Newer ones usually do not contain active viruses. They either have inactivated viruses, or, increasingly, just the viral proteins or mRNA. This reduces the risk of the vaccine causing harm to the recipient.
If the person survives, their immune system may learn to identify and defend against that virus. Or it might just forget. Or it might cause random damage due to cytokine storms. Or it might forget all previous information. And in any case, some percentage of the population will die.
Thinking that infections are good because they will help increase immunity is like thinking that a country constantly being at war is good because then they’ll always be ready for war. Particularly when you can give the same immunity at a fraction of the risk using vaccines that just have some proteins or mRNA.
deleted by creator
If the virus originated in a wide area around Yunnan/Hubei (the latter of which is where Wuhan is) then it seems pretty unlikely that it came from a single source within Wuhan, right? I agree that the headline might be a bit ambiguous, but it’s like saying ‘It came from all over Texas’ vs ‘It came specifically from El Paso.’ But I haven’t read the study myself.